Showing posts with label Seaside mailing list. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Seaside mailing list. Show all posts

Wednesday, 6 May 2009

Seaside - amateurish circle-jerk mentality ?

There were two comments given to my posts, which could explain the problems of Seaside from a completely different perspective and much better than I did:

Richard Kulisz commented my post "Seaside standing outperforms facts":

"It seems Seaside has been infected with the same amateurish circle-jerk mentality that's corrupted Squeak from which it was spawned. It also seems to me that this has little to do with national differences and everything to do with professional vs amateur efforts. In professional circles, standards vary from place to place, but in amateur circles (eg, FLOSS) they seem to be uniformly poor."

Richard also commented my post: "Laws of life in a community":

"The conscious or unconscious selection of Leaders and their defense at all costs is a normal (even if utterly repugnant, vile and disgusting) part of every community. I've been in quite a few and I've observed this behaviour in nearly all of them. The Creators always, ALWAYS get defended.

In the case of programmers, no community of programmers can ever be diverse enough to avoid appointing gods. Wiki wiki (c2) wasn't. It's because programmers are on the whole nothing but mindless robots incapable of genuinely original thought. What's worse, the overwhelming majority LIKE this status quo.

Also, in the case of programmers, the Creator is almost always going to be a member of the community. This creates incestuous inbreeding, up to and including mutated deformed offspring."

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Well, Richard, thank you very much for these interesting and valuable aspects. I feel that there is a lot of truth in these words, although I cannot judge myself, because Seaside is my first and only "community project" experience. Not a good one, though. Nor did I ever use Squeak beyond a little playing.

It all sounds very logical - taking into account that most people choose being part of a herd, a malfunction that I have never suffered from.

Seeing Seasiders as amateurish sheeples is an interesting aspect, which explains the fierce rejection of my proposals by most, without even discussing the technical facts. And it also explains why my heretic blasphemy of their gods made all my good technical arguments worthless for them.

Thank you for these insights, which, in essence, is much stronger a critique than mine.

Thursday, 23 April 2009

Seaside social standing outperforms facts

Valuable comments are not well visible on this blog software.
I therefore make a post from a discussion with a Smalltalk expert so that you can make up your mind what facts and arguments weight for some Seaside advocats:

Randal L. Schwartz wrote:

I will not accept your unverified statements here. I *will* accept comments made in response to your proper bug reports. If you want to make a difference to the Seaside project, please make proper bug reports, and please offer to provide patches for things that you have solutions for. Otherwise, you're tilting at windmills, with all due respect.

My answer is:

"Unverified"?

Randal, your are a Smalltalk expert, very active on the Seaside mailing list. You do know that all of my claims here are valid and reasonable, even if some may be subject to taste and personal style, of course.

That's why there is again not one word from you about my critics, only about "politics".

Beyond the background and history of this blog (see: "History of my critics"), my recent experience with the Seaside advocats on the mailing list after publishing the blog tells it all:

- A community of "experts" that has violated the law of documenting code for more than 7 years cannot be taken seriously (1)
- Almost no discussion of my critics and proposals.
- Those two or three writers who wanted to discuss my critics were made shut-up immediately by the "community".
- Social pressure replaces arguments.
- Best is this post where it says: To be taken seriously *your social standing* in the Seaside mailing list community is most important, in other words:

Facts don't really count for the Seasiders!

This blog tells the public about details, problems and deficiencies of Seaside and about my experiences - openly and most honestly - so that everybody can make up his own mind.

The Seaside advocats have had their chances - they were all refused. All you can do is take my critics seriously, first of all document Seaside properly in the code and remove at least most of the obscurities that I am listing here. And I still have a long list to publish.

I would have had a lot to contribute. First it was refused and now I will not disclose my identity, because I am risking severe commercial pressure..... I have seen that happen...

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(1) The requirement to thoroughly document code is the very first and most holy law of software development that I am not willing to discuss. This is the most widely acknowledged rule in the software industry.

Who denies this cannot be taken seriously!

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Addition on the 24. April 2009 made as a comment:

Jarober wrote:

What Randal was asking for was actual bug reports, as opposed to comments in a blog or a mailing list. Seaside - like most software products - has a standard way of accepting bug reports. You seem to expect to have your reports taken as gospel without going through the standard procedure.

My answer:

Hello Jarober,

Thank you for explaining what Randal meant but I did understand that perfectly well.

The point is that this is not a matter of procedures but of acknowledging the need and justification for (at least some of) my proposals and critics.

The reaction of almost all of the mailing list writers showed me, just like the earlier history, that there is not a minimum consensus on the need for change and improvement. People seem to be happy with the current state. I am not.

Not even the need for documentation was acknowledged - neither before my blog nor now.

So what would any entries in the bug reports help if there is not the slightest understanding, agreement and approval by the Seaside advocates that his situation is unsustainable?

I had offered my help and contributions. Both were rejected. Only now this public blog disturbs your graveyard peace.

They were happy without documentation for more than 7 years! Renggli rather writes long explanations on the mailing list than add this to the code. See "Not learning from mistakes".

Frankly: It's not me that has to change attitudes. All you (plural) are after is explained in "Social standing outperforms facts".

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Addition on the 25. April 2009:

Jarober wrote:

Not exactly. There's an old adage: "You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar".

What you're doing is yelling at people, and people don't like being yelled at. Yes, going off on a rant is enjoyable, but take it from me - it doesn't help, and it hurts a lot.

Back during my days at ParcPlace, any good points I made were completely ignored, due to the vitriol with which they were delivered. I managed to poison a number of relationships at Cincom the same way during my first couple of years here, and it's taken me years - yes years - to dig my way out of that pit.

If your intention is to offer advice that will be listened to, stop calling people names, stop saying that Seaside stinks, and just dispense with the attitude. I'm sure the venting makes you feel better, but believe me, it makes what you are saying end up completely ignored.

It doesn't matter whether you think that's right, or whether you think that's fair - it just is. You can accept that reality and start becoming effectual, or you can keep going as you are, and be completely ignored.

My answer:

Well, Jarober,

thank you for your kind explanations, but obviously we have a substantial cultural difference, because this US American attitude of yours is not mine and never will.

I am grateful to have had lots of different influences in my youth not only from my widespread family: German-Swiss, Prussian (which is a very special sort of German), a smaller part English with a little spice from Wien, another different German mentality.

Maybe the great fault of most people in the USA is that they are completely unwilling to accept other mentalities. Could be that this is one of the many great problems that the world has with the USA (that is not against you personally).

Most in Europe have learned to take the best out of each variant. That's even what we joke about in this famous story about Europe in heaven and Europe in hell.

My home country is the best example: Our mentalities differ from one valley to another and essentially we love that.

Variety id good. "Melting pot" is bad. It leads to the smallest common denominator.

I assume that this US mentality described by you has led to today's situation in the US industry, namely the car industry. This is at least what people at Opel and Ford in Germany report (I know insiders well). Immune to advice! Nothing more to say!

I don't rely any more on the Seaside mailing list, they have had their chances several times. Now those with open mind can join in to my future activities.

Tuesday, 21 April 2009

Not learning from mistakes

Yesterday I was searching how to send files from disk in Seaside. So I consulted the Seaside mailing list, which serves as some poor documentation replacement, and I found this interesting post (bolds added by me):

On Jan 10, 2006, at 12:13 AM, goran@xxxxxxxxx wrote:

The question is: How do people serve files with Seaside? Especially static files like images? And no, you don't need to reply if you use Apache or HV2 on the side :)

I use Apache on the side :) But anyway...

I started digging of course and found WADocumentHandler - but
uncommented, as well as all the handler classes in fact, ehrm, . IMHO this is a lacking in Seaside - just a *teeeeny* bit too few class comments. :) ...and why does WADocumentHandler>>response send #text to the content stream btw?

Good question. I assume there's some good reason, but
I honestly don't remember what.
....
....
Avi (Bryant)
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The facts:

1) In January 2006 Avi Bryant was politely criticized for not adding any comments

2) Avi Bryant did not remember why he had implemented something the way it was

3) He did not change his attitude since then. No in-code comments were added since then.

My comments:

1) Very friendly said. After three years I have all reasons to be no longer so polite.

2) Happens to everybody. That is why in-code documentation is so important.

3) Making mistakes is normal. Making the same mistakes continuously is stupid. Not learning from mistakes is unforgivable.

This post proves me right! And there are several similar ones.

Therefore, new Seasiders: Be very careful to join in as long as the authors make the same stupid mistakes over and over again!

See my other post about using WAExternalFileLibrary.

Monday, 20 April 2009

History of my critics

My critics are very straightforward and some of my words are quite rude. I know that and this is not my normal style.

But there are situations when wrong politeness doesn't bring you any further. This is here the case.

I am not disclosing all of the details of the history behind this blog but I first tried it the conventional way and I even contacted Lukas Renggli on the phone. The reactions by the mailing list and by Herr Renggli were quite similar and showed that there was no interest in improving documentation and coding style.

My proposals to contribute documentation and code were simply rejected!

Through this and over time I had to get to the conclusion that there must be well hidden commercial interests behind this attitude. I don't mind people making money but I think that one should not pretend being the Samaritian but in reality act just to the opposite. This was the case. Maybe I'm wrong with my assumptions but this is my impression that I gained from my previous attempts to improve Seaside.

There is no excuse for missing documentation - after about 7 years in the project!

Therefore, please see this blog - which is certainly using some unfriendly phrases - as the attempt to put public pressure on these extremely self assured advocates and developers who have been totally immune to advise.

My only goal is to have Seaside improved, because we have invested far too much in Seaside and have lost a lot of time and money because of the criticised deficiencies.

Remember: My own offers to contribute were completely rejected!

Saturday, 18 April 2009

Laws of life in a community!

On the Seaside mailing list, there were and are violent arguments against this blog. Here is what I answered to one of them about the mechanics of a community:

I fully understand you:

There is finally somebody daring to frankly criticise the gods of Seaside in very open words and with some good arguments and he is not willing to make the Kowtow in front of the Seaside emperors!

That's an unexcusable sin!

But as long as somebody refuses to document their work, it's extremely hard for me to take them seriously. There has never been any excuse or confession by the authors that it was/is a great mistake not to document.

If they were saying clearly: If you want to understand Seaside then you must hire me, it'd be fine for me. But I hate lies and dissimulations.

Instead of writing many posts on the mailing list, they should rather make their homework and properly document Seaside. Or openly charge for it. Fair enough!

Just one example concerning this:

"Technically I don't share your view about any of the problems you mention as "massive problems"."

Even if you don't consider my issues "massive" why don't you at least admit that I am making some serious points?!

Or don't you want to be blamed like some other writer on the mailing list who was immediately corrected for showing some understanding for my points?! He was made shut-up.

This is why I am getting discrete emails from people who partially or even essentially agree but who don't want to expose themselves opposing openly to this "community".

We have this typical community situation:

You all stick together because I am disturbing your circles. I am standing in your sun while you are the Diogenes in the barrel who says: "Go our of my sun".

I am most constructive on my blog. Why don't you join in?! Could be anonymous so that you won't get beaten by the others of this community.

You - and everybody else - are welcome!
Greetings from Mr. Cucumber

Friday, 17 April 2009

Ethical discussion

Lukas Renggli just made this posting to the Seaside mailing list:

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Please ignore this guy and the posts he is writing. He is a troll. Indeed, he was calling me yesterday on my work phone. Without introduction he was insulting me and the whole Seaside community. He eventually hung up without having identified himself and without letting me finish my explanations.

Cheers,
Lukas
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I have to put things right, because there are a few lies in these words:

1) "He is a troll"
I take Seaside most seriously. We have invested a lot of time and money and cannot afford to continue having massive problems because of the undocumented and badly designed code in Seaside.

2) "he was insulting me and the whole Seaside community"
That is blunt lie! After saying my name, I started my phone call with these words: "We have now been working with Seaside for several months and in my 10 years of Smalltalk experience I have never come about such an undocumented and in major parts badly designed code. I offer you my help in documenting and improving Seaside, because it is very important for us."

The immediate response of Lukas Renggli, without asking any questions or wanting to know my ideas, was to tell me "to choose Ruby, because Seaside is one of the best pieces of Smalltalk around".

He showed to be completely immune to advice ("beratungs-resistent").

3) He eventually hung up without having identified himself
This is another blunt lie! I introduced myself at the very beginning of the phone call.

4) ...and without letting me finish my explanations.
The third blunt lie! After Herr Renggli made very clear that there was neither a need nor any interest for improvements and collaboration I told him that I have rarely met such an arrogant person and I then hung up, simply because it was clear that this would not lead to anything at all.

Let me make clear: Seaside is extremely important for us and I am just not willing to continue to live with the compromises resulting from my critics.

I am not doing this here for fun! I see this going public as the only way to put some pressure on this rather "conspirative" community who is not open to outside critics. And many of these people consider themselves as experienced Smalltalk gurus who neither need documentation nor advice.

Otherwise they would have documented in the first place. The reactions on the mailing list so far show well that I am right.

Wednesday, 15 April 2009

On the darker side of Seaside

The Seaside web server library has often been praised to give Smalltalk a new boost. This is certainly true but things look a lot different when it comes to the practical usage and implementation of Seaside.

This is why this blog is primarily discussing the darker aspects of the Seaside design and implementation besides discussing general aspects of programming in Smalltalk.

Therefore, please don't expect too much of praise from me. You will primarily read critics and a lot of concrete engineering proposals to improve your work in Seaside and Smalltalk.

Of course, I first called Lukas Renggli, the European Seaside advocate, offering my help for documentation and improvement of the "object-orientability" of the Seaside code.

Lukas Renggli showed to be totally immune to advice. He did not even listen to my arguments! After my first critics (missing doc) he immediately said that this was one of the best pieces of code that exists in Smalltalk (I will prove him wrong in this blog) and he recommended me to use Ruby if I was "incapable" of using this "brilliant" (but undocumented) code. I have rarely spoken to someone so unconditionally arrogant and ignorant.

This is how I came to write this blog.

Another subject: Don't expect me to be politically correct!

This stupid "PC" is a US American invention that nobody needs with a goal to control, manipulate and spiritually suppress open minded people by trying to enforce them to lie or at least to deny the truth. I will never allow anybody to manipulate me like that and I will speak out open and free words and withstand this dangerous epidemic political correctness.

Therefore, from me people still die and do not "pass away" (what a stupid term!) and they are victims of genocide and murder instead of "ethnical cleansing". Don't worry, this blog is not on politics but this is where one finds the most drastic examples of this mental sickness called PC.

Last technical aspect: I am dictating these texts with voice recognition, which is a very fast and efficient way to write down my thoughts but which often leads to being careless when proofreading the text. Also, English is not my primary language.